ASL, English and Attitude
Ben Vess of Der Sankt wrote a blog entry about people’s attitudes toward our languages, and I left a comment recommending that we ignore it. But after some due consideration I’m going to rescind my position on that.
First, I should state that when it comes to English and ASL, I strongly believe that both languages are equal to each other, and are just as equally important for our personal and professional lives. I’m an excellent writer, and the same is true when it comes to my usage of ASL. I don’t think I’m being egocentric when I say that because I’ve been tested on both English and ASL. I’ve had professionals declare after testing me, that they have never seen a person like me (a mainstreamed deaf person with a totally hearing family) be so fluent in both languages.
What brought about this reversal of my position is relatively simple. I’m feeling particularly snarky today. In particular, the incestuous phrase which was famously misunderstood on DeafDC by many readers, including me, now has been mentioned with derision twice in the deaf blogosphere. Needless to say, that irked me a bit. On the flip side, apparently several comments were left around the blogosphere complaining that some blog entries’ vocabularies were too sophisticated. People are also debating about language accessibility on v/blogs here and there. What’s the deal with that?
We cannot please everyone when we do our blogs or vlogs. There is always going to be someone out there who doesn’t understand what we’re saying or just plain dislikes everything that we say. It should also be noted that not everyone is fluent in both languages. People do have their limitations.
With that said, I don’t like people who whine that the vocabulary in our blogs are too sophisticated either. I’ll write any way I please, thank you very much. Don’t expect the blogger to adjust their writing just for you. I’ve seen so many deaf people tell others to toughen it out when it comes to learning ASL. Not only that, we have to hold up a standard that shows that the deaf are just as good at English and critical thinking as the hearing.
But it is also rare for me to deliberately jam-pack my blog entries with complex vocabulary just to impress. Do I use the dictionary and thesaurus when I’m writing something? Absolutely – but only to find the exact word that has the exact meaning I want.
A mark of a good writer is to have good prose that attracts attention of his/her audience and have the words add to the prose, instead of the words be used to impress the audience. Just because a person is eloquent with English doesn’t mean that person is necessarily more worldly than others who aren’t as eloquent. And that is the attitude I’m getting from several blog posts in the blogosphere; the blogger is more worldly than others because the person has an excellent grasp of English.
I consider it insulting when people toss out words in their blogs and tell their readers to look it up. I think that speaks volumes of the blogger’s attitude towards his/her audience. Through no fault of their own, many of the deaf do not have good English skills. Not all, but far too many do not. But shockingly enough, there are many hearing people out there whose English skills leave much to be desired as well!
What’s ironic to me about this entire situation is that neither factions are fluent in both languages. They’re only fluent in one or the other, yet they are accusing each other of being condescending because they aren’t fluent in either one. Just a bit of hypocrisy there, don’t you think?
43 Comments
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John Egbert said,
April 28, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Lately, I was disappointed that some of the Blog/Vloggers that are beginning to lose the focus on working together as a team to have prosperity for the future deaf children on having ASL/English (Bilingual).
Who we are now is not important because we mostly are already a by-product of what the oral education has done to us.
Whenever you notice someone lacking something, let’s don’t talk about it, but to find the cause and recify the problem. And the problems mostly was from our inferior language education in the beginning of our lives.
I don’t have good English, I am not well educated, I try to do my best now and in future so another deaf child will not end up like me.
All we need to do is to have Bilingual education for all deaf children and prosperity will become a reality that we all have been waiting for since 1880.
John F. Egbert
KH said,
April 28, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Hi I mostly agree with what John talked about by-product of what the oral education have done to us. Mike, You are one of a few fortunates to have a good parents who spent alot of time teaching you to have a good English as well as Asl. I learned how to read/write at an age of 12 with the BIG HELP OF ASL.They emphasized too much oral education on me when I was a younger and I learned nothing… I am in very much support of having Bilingual Education for all deaf children. what is more, to tell you the truth,, I have noticed alot of deaf children of deaf parents are doing much better in written English than the deaf children of hearing children. Obviously. The ASL They used to communicate to start with and later they were taught how to write English in a residental.. I admit I have struggled to understand English before an age of 12… please unity for all deafies peace:) KHughes
deafpundit said,
April 28, 2007 at 10:01 pm
I mostly agree with you, Egbert. Though I’m inclined to say that we should talk about the problem first, because that way we understand it better. After understanding it, we then can create solutions to rectify it.
We definitely need to focus on that. Focusing on using big English words to feel better and being ’sympathetic’ at the notion that most of deaf are functionally illiterate, serves no purpose and contributes nothing to our understanding of the problems we have.
deafpundit said,
April 28, 2007 at 10:02 pm
KH, this isn’t Mike’s blog. His is at http://kokonutpundits.blogspot.com/
I’m Deaf Pundit, owner of this blog.
KH said,
April 28, 2007 at 10:07 pm
OOPS! sorry:) KH
deafpundit said,
April 28, 2007 at 10:10 pm
*smiles* I agree with what you said, by the way. For the most part, bilingualism is the way to go. That is how I became so fluent in both languages.
Aaron R. said,
April 28, 2007 at 11:16 pm
This is just something to consider when touching on the issue of deaf children of deaf versus hearing parents.
What is the parents’ home language? ASL? English? Spanish?
I could assert the claim that both cuers and signers perform better than those who use alternative modes of communication, since their parents communicate more effectively in their “mother tongue” than those who choose to not go with a visual modality.
We all know that the first five years are the most critical stage of language development, but all this research is being conducted on how deaf children develops their own language. The issue lies in the “re-education” of the current generation of teachers, whether they specialize in deaf education or mainstream, and improving the education of the next generation of teachers.
Consider this. Even though I may be only one case out of thousands, the story is very similar for many others in the same circumstances as I. My parents began cueing when I was 19 months old. At 3 years old, I was tested to have a language delay of 18 months (that’s how long I went before I was diagnosed with profound hearing loss). Yet at age 6, they tested me thoroughly and comprehensively. I was reading at the 4th grade level. How else could anyone explain the sudden leap in language if it wasn’t Cued Speech that brought me to this point.
Bilingual education could be the best option for those who have parents that are fluent in ASL, but is it the best option for hearing parents who cannot sign to save their life? Oral education couldn’t be the best option either if so many people are complaining about it.
It’s all about the options, since parents have the legal right to choose whatever they desire for their own children. In fact that’s what one family did. At home, with deaf parents and deaf children, the language is ASL. At school, the children receive services from a Cued Language Transliterator. So what about CueSign as a way of achieving bilingual education? Why not multilingual education?
Language matters, whether it’s visual or oral.
All The Young Dudes - » Big Words and Lotsa Text Part Three: !!! said,
April 28, 2007 at 11:38 pm
[...] this madness, there are some sane voices who do get it. ASL, English and Attitude is [...]
titus2woman said,
April 29, 2007 at 12:13 am
As a homeschooling mama of four who is interested in learning and teaching ASL with my children, do you have any suggestions on how to begin or favorite resources to recommend? *THANK YOU!* (((((HUGS))))) sandi
Lantana said,
April 29, 2007 at 12:26 am
It is very trendy nowdays to teach your kids ASL. But how long will they retain their information? “Use it or lose it”.
ASL is not a toy to be used, or an ego boost to show how your kiddies can do the “deaf talk”. ASL IS A FORM OF COMMUNICATION FOR DEAF PEOPLE who find themselves unable to communicate via other methods.
Lantana
Lantana’s Latitudes
Jean Boutcher said,
April 29, 2007 at 12:46 am
Some people are still not aware that there are more people who cannot write or read. TIME Magazine had conducted a study in 1963 and wrote a cover story, “Why Johnny Can’t Read”. Researchers referred Johnnies to hearing people. Thirty years later in 1993, TIME conducted another study and once again wrote on the cover, “Why Johnny Can’t Write.” NEWSWEEK in May 2000 listed the countries who have the highest percentage of literacy:
1. France
2. Germany
3. Japan
15. United Kingdom
16. United States.
Last: Somalia
I do not carry sources in my pocket, but
I seem to recall having read in The Washington Post that today’s more and more (hearing) people can read, but they cannot comprehend. Researchers discovered that
their learning disabilities interfere with their reading comprehension.
A fellow who graduated from my alma mater,
New York University, was DOH. He could not
learn ASL or English because of his learning disability. His mother had to expose Cued Speech to him. Now he moved smoothly to both ASL and English. His hearing brother could not learn English either. It turned out that he, too, had a learning disability like his older deaf brother, so he had gone through the same
process. Now both the deaf and the hearing
had a good command of English.
“Ability and determination for learning” really varies from individual to individual,
however deaf or hearing.
BEG said,
April 29, 2007 at 1:56 am
Working on bilingualism here
though in the other direction (English to ASL). Very nicely thought out post.
Joseph Pietro Riolo said,
April 29, 2007 at 7:30 am
I want to tell you this.
At first, I didn’t understand what you meant by “worldly”. The meanings that I knew for worldly did not make any sense in your sentences that used it. I had to look up several dictionaries trying to figure out what you meant and I came to conclusion that you meant sophistication. This is another meaning that I learned.
My point here is that your blog can be seen as a teaching tool for the deaf kids. The low expectation among the deaf kids is very periculous to their mind. (Periculous is a very old word meaning dangerous.) They need to see that they should strive for or even exceed the level of English skills of the deaf bloggers. We need to set good examples for them. We need to set good models for them. We need to send strong messages to them that improving their English skills is an unstoppable task.
I better get off the soapbox. I needed to vent my frustration with the mindset of low expectation.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
deafpundit said,
April 29, 2007 at 8:44 am
Aaron, you’re right about children being exposed to language at an early age. That’s an absolute must! I was lucky that my deafness was caught before age 1, and my parents both learned ASL. My mother as a result, became fluent in it. It helped that she already knew 4 other languages prior to that.
Still today, my parents and immediate family all sign to varying degrees of fluency. But that is the key here. The deaf child has to be immersed in a language, just like hearing children are. And that is what people like McConnell seem to overlook. Not very many deaf children have that opportunity, and it’s not their fault. Those who do have that opportunity *tend* to be deaf children with deaf families. Research has proven that. As for cued speech, I don’t know very much about that except it’s a communications system, not a language like English and ASL are. But if it worked for you and works for some children, then great!
What bothered me the most about McConnell’s post was that he said he was sympathetic, then in the same breath, he told us to look up a word in the dictionary. That’s being sympathetic? Yikes… I would hate to see him when he’s NOT sympathetic!
Jean, you’re absolutely right in that one. I would like to add that it also depends on how involved the parents are in the children’s education. It does make a difference and you see that with both hearing and deaf children. If the family is truly involved, the learning disabilities can be overcome – but it has to be done at an early age, unfortunately.
Thanks, BEG.
Joseph: yea, I meant worldly in the sense of sophistication. And I learned a new word from you!
Titus2Woman, the best way to learn ASL and teach it to your children is to take them out to the deaf community. Learning it from a dictionary or a CD won’t suffice if you want them to be any good at ASL. That’s what my family did. They went out and met deaf people and learned ASL from them, in addition to taking ASL classes.
There are a few books I can recommend for learning about deaf culture. ‘Mask of Benevolence’ by Harlan Lane; ‘A Journey into the DEAF-WORLD’ by Harlan Lane, Robert Hoffmeister and Ben Bahan are good starting points. Good luck teaching your children ASL!
joseph rainmound said,
April 29, 2007 at 9:32 am
Deaf Pundit – I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with u on this one.
1. If someone puts a “big word!!!!!!” in their blog why can’t people just look it up on dictionary.com?
2. If someone is using intelligent language doesn’t that show they have high respect for their readers? Especially for Deaf people who have language skill problems – don’t we have the responsibility to raise the bar with each other?
3. Following ur logic, shd we all talk in baby talk on blogs so we include everyone?
Just wondering what u think… J
deafpundit said,
April 29, 2007 at 10:10 am
Joseph, read again what I wrote.
The 5th paragraph in this blog says: “With that said, I don’t like people who whine that the vocabulary in our blogs are too sophisticated either. I’ll write any way I please, thank you very much. Don’t expect the blogger to adjust their writing just for you. I’ve seen so many deaf people tell others to toughen it out when it comes to learning ASL. Not only that, we have to hold up a standard that shows that the deaf are just as good at English and critical thinking as the hearing.”
1) If there’s a word in a blog that a person doesn’t understand, they definitely should look it up. I agree with you on that.
2) Yeah, I would like to think so. That is *usually* the case. That’s why I didn’t hold back in this blog entry with my vocabulary.
But what offended me about McConnell’s post was that he *deliberately* put in words that very few people knew, then told them to look it up! That doesn’t strike me as being very respectful of your readers.
3) Absolutely not. Again, read the 5th paragraph of this entry. Write any way you want, but don’t look down on us if we don’t understand something in your blog! We’re constantly learning, or one would hope anyway…
mcconnell said,
April 29, 2007 at 11:55 am
“But what offended me about McConnell’s post was that he *deliberately* put in words that very few people knew, then told them to look it up! That doesn’t strike me as being very respectful of your readers.”
I have used the word “discombobulate” a couple of times in my blogposts. Words like “confounded” is, to me, a commonly used word. And for “vulgarized,” it was specifically choosen solely of the look and sound of the word where readers (those who do not want to look it up) will assume it has to do with “vulgar” words, which it is not. Just as many readers have assumed what “incestuous” meant despite how it was placed context-wise in a sentence.
There seem to be a bit of a misunderstanding on your part on why I put certain “fancy words” in deliberately. And that was to drive home a point. This is the era of the internet where words can be easily looked up.
I have in the past, on rare occasssions, added dictionary links to certain “unfamiliar words.” But I stopped doing that since I figure readers are smart enough to do that on their own. Should I expect otherwise? It has always been my expectatations, as should be for everybody else, that it’s the reader’s responsibility to look up a word. Should I instead expect readers not be able to do this and they’re a bunch of helpless creatures? Of course not! This is, after all, the era of the internet.
There is this seeming habit by certain people who have the uncanny ability to twist everything out of context in some of my blogposts thinking the subject is aimed at the whole community. It is not if one actually take the time to see where I’m driving at in my blogpost. It’s clear that the subject is about certain individuals who do these certain things such as, for example, taking the time to actually complain about the use of “fancy words.” Instead, a time would’ve been better spent looking up that unfamiliar word in the first place, and not complain like a 2 year old. I don’t turn down requests for explainations of certain words or clarifications. That’s a different approach but if one chooses to complain instead, well, that person must be the laziest person on the planet who cannot even look it up or have the decency to ask for an explanation.
This is all intuitive here and I shouldn’t even have to explain it all here.
Do you see the thrust of my argument? Many Deaf people understood my blogpost right away and agreed and knew I was talking about certain individuals who acted a certain way.
My bar of expectation is higher for the readers.
What is yours?
John Egbert said,
April 29, 2007 at 12:13 pm
To be successful in writing whether you do it on a website or business, etc, you should do it at an eighth grade level.
If you try to impress yourself with big vocabulary, it’s been said that you will lose customers or readers.
This is not from my perspective, it’s from successful web builders that capture majority of the surfers.
The simple wordings in my website keeps surfers to stay in longer before they click out.
Just be humble.
John F. Egbert
deafpundit said,
April 29, 2007 at 12:25 pm
First off, there were many people who misunderstood the wording of incestuous, including me. Are you telling me that my writing and reading comprehension are sub-par? Because I would like to think I’ve proven myself to have an excellent grasp of English and its vocabulary.
My point is that occasionally people will goof up, like I did with that phrase, yet it’s been ridiculed twice by you as an example of people’s supposed laziness and incompetence.
Furthermore, while you may have been targeting a few certain individuals for their silliness of asking you to not write such “fancy” words, you claimed to maintain sympathy for those who didn’t understand, yet hurled a word, and an obscure one at that, then told them to look it up.
As for my bar of expectation for the readers here, I’ll write the way I want with the words I want to use, but I’m not going to use my vocabulary as a weapon. If a person complains that my blog’s too wordy, I don’t see a reason to respond to that, really. These kind of complaints say enough by itself.
Your blogpost could’ve been done better, McConnell. Your approach was rude.
deafpundit said,
April 29, 2007 at 12:40 pm
I also want to add that it may have been your intention to drive home the point that it is very easy to look up words on the internet, but it didn’t entirely come off as that.
Given your tone in that blogpost and in your last few ones as well, to me and others, the subtle message was also: “I know a lot of words, more than you do. Don’t make me use really obscure words or you’ll have something to really cry about!”
Dianrez said,
April 29, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Words shouldn’t be used as weapons of oppression or disrespect or harm, but they often are.
They should be used as a way to communicate ideas. People that have true skill with words choose them carefully to present the message well, not accidentally make it vauge because the words themselves got in the way.
michele said,
April 29, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Let Mike go, he will eventually get the point somehow nailed to his head. Maybe when he is in his eighties.
He is like a little kid in a candy shop trying to impress a shopkeeper with his perfect speech and fancy words.
Mike, what are you trying to prove to us? My subtle advice to you is to be yourself and write whatever comes to your thoughts. It is obvious that you have to look up in the dictionary to find the fancy words which is time-consuming and does not really reflect your true writing.
mcconnell said,
April 29, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Incorrect. DP. That has always been my way of writing. I choose the words as I go along that fit the flavor I want to express.
This is what I’m talking about here. Is there an insecurity issue here and people yet opt to complain instead rather than face the challenge to learn new words? It’s not about me being “better” than they are but about my writing style and choice of words that haven’t changed for 20 years.
What you saying, DP, if I read it right, is that your bar of expectation shouldn’t be set higher for your readers?
These “fancy” words aren’t new to me at all. It may be new to you or to some of the readers. This is how I write and it matches my flow of thought uniterrupted. Nothing more. People read way too much into this when my blogpost was addressed to the few who had the audacity to complain about “fancy words”. Nothing more.
If you really want “oppressive words” read up any PhD dissertation papers. That’s when your dictionary becomes your friend. It still is.
deafpundit said,
April 29, 2007 at 1:07 pm
I think my blog entries speak for itself regarding my bar of expectations for the readers here, McConnell.
W.F.T. said,
April 29, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Mike, I understand it is difficult for one to be objective about one’s intentions, actions, and in this case, tone. One sometimes need an outsider or two to point it out to one.
Do not automatically assume such people are “crazy liberals” out to get you nor are they jealous people afflicted with low self-esteem. For example, I am an Independent who equally sympathize with/dislike the two major political parties in the U.S. I certainly do not have low self-esteem and I am not jealous of your writing because I frequently see egregious errors of either the grammatical or word-choice variety. Yet I concur with many who take offense to your tone – which, while subtle at times, is pretty clearly smug. I have seen this tone in too many of your posts.
mishkazena said,
April 29, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I’ve also sensed this tone in Mike’s posts too frequently.
mcconnell said,
April 29, 2007 at 3:56 pm
WFT,
Incorrect on your analysis.
Nothing smug about describing a situation of a person(s) who took the time to actually complain about my use of “fancy words.” I know for a fact there are very smart and capable Deaf people out there when it comes to writing and retaining certain knowledge on a variety of subjects.
Again, many people have shown their uncanny ability to lump a subject covering a few people and equate that to the whole Deaf community population. That’s pretty audacious if you ask me.
Do you know what the subject was about? Sure, the few people who had the audicity to sit down and type out a complaint to me about the use of “fancy words.” There is no hidden agenda here. No conspiracy plot to smear all of the Deaf community. Just the few unnamed individuals about their actions. Nothing more.
Again, people are reading way, wayyy, too much into all this and have since become overly defensive. And construe all this to be a slap at the Deaf community. Hardly.
My writing is fine, WFT. Your wry comment about my so-called miscues in my use of grammar seems to be indicative of a deeper, underlying issue you have with me rather than choose to be objective in this matter.
Mishkazena…you have “tone,” too.
The One and Only Ridor said,
April 29, 2007 at 4:25 pm
It is about time that people detects McConnell’s tone with his blogposts. I recall him telling me in person at NAD Conference that he could not understand why people prefers to read mine over his. It is all about how to relate. Does not matter if one has to use big words … as long as one gets to relate to others.
McConnell has a skill … a skill in being rude and pull the big words on anyone else in particular when he is being cornered by others.
One only needs to look at how he expresses himself. It is amusing, really.
R-
Kevin said,
April 29, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Ridor’s and McConnell’s blogs are two of my favorite deaf blogs. I read them almost daily. Yes, they’re polar opposite of each other but they both serve a single purpose: to inform the deaf audience in an engaging manner.
So, what’s wrong with using big words? Go watch C-Span or any MSNBC program.
Truthfully I’d rather converse with those of very broad vocabulary THAN a person who insists on typing “remmy” instead of “remember”.
getting off my little soapbox….
K
deafpundit said,
April 29, 2007 at 7:25 pm
*I* don’t have a problem with bloggers using big words, especially when you consider the fact that there are some “big words” in my blog entries and comments.
I’ve already explained what my issues are in the entry and the comments above. I don’t know why others have such an issue with bloggers using high-brow words, other than McConnell’s tone, which everyone seems pretty much in agreement about.
Deaf258 said,
April 29, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Looks like Ridor and John Egbert share the same point, it is all about relating to the readers.
It’s a bad business sense for a blogger to insult his readers’ intelligence!
The One and Only Ridor said,
April 30, 2007 at 2:03 am
Kevin (29.): Go watch C-SPAN? That is when I am sick or bored, I tune in that to get some kicks then doze off in peace.
R-
IamMine said,
April 30, 2007 at 4:55 am
I see you’ve made new friends, DP.
Umm…eerrrmmm…. yeah, English and ASL are NOT equal.
Whoa! Hold those hands!!!
EQUAL in their own respect but not to each other. How can you do that – you cannot measure the equality of those two languages? Just two completely different languages – but if you meant equal as having education in both of those languages – then yeah. (I can’t find my glasses here so…)
Well, no fancy words here….but I’ll give you this:
deafpundit said,
April 30, 2007 at 8:49 am
*grins at IamMine*
Yeah, I understand what you mean. I guess the word equal wasn’t really appropriate for this blog entry. They’re both equally valid, is a better way to put it. Both languages are recognized by linguists as languages, not as communication systems. They both have its own grammar, syntax, morphology, and so on.
Both are truly complex languages, and many find either language difficult to learn.
That was one out of the many points I was trying to make in my blog entry.
mcconnell said,
April 30, 2007 at 5:53 pm
“I recall him telling me in person at NAD Conference that he could not understand why people prefers to read mine over his.”
That’s a blatant lie, Ridor. I believe you seriously misconstrued on what I said.
Never did I say that nor said it in such a way that would have implied that at all whether at NAD or anywhere else. In fact, to illustrate why I wouldn’t say that, I told you that your blog had a lot of potential in my blogpost a while back after the NAD convention when we met the 2nd time outside the double doors of the vendors showroom at the NAD convention with my wife standing next to me while I conversed with you.
“Prior to my initiated handshake with Ridor I told him that his blog has lots of potential but if he keeps it up by disparaging other people including their families, somebody else will go after him.”
http://kokonutpundits.blogspot.com/2006/08/meaning-of-word-cordial.html
Did you convey that same sentiment towards me about my blogging effort after our 2nd meeting after I offered/initiated my 2nd handshake to you to conclude the talk?
No. But that’s not the point.
And do you remember when I warned you about the consequences of one’s own actions in the first meeting?
And guess what happened? You lost several sponsors because of that mouth of yours about the Va Tech killings. They certainly weren’t “amused” by what you have said.
What I don’t appreciate, Ridor, is for you to purposely lie like this just so you get your jollies.
Just like saying 40% of all my posts were about you. Another blatant lie.
http://www.ridorlive.com/?p=2194#comments
I’ve done 1073 posts so far. A little more than 1% of the postings were about you or that it infers you in some way. That’s like 12 or 13 posts…total..in almost 2 1/2 years worth out of 1073 posts. All one has to do is look up each month’s archive list on my blogsite and read the titles and see what I talked about. Which one of the blogposts talked about you? Very, very few in fact. Your world do not revolve around mine.
I have always advocated and hoped that Deaf/deaf/hh people succeed in life. Even you, Ridor. Whether it’s successful blogging, getting a job, to successfully graduate with advanced degres, a career, become a successful business-person, become the first NASCAR driver, or what have you. I have blogged several successful Deaf people because they are the source of inspiration to many people. An inspiration that is in short supply around here.
I’d rather have this so-called “tone” of mine than to wish a little boy dead just get back at a deaf father for all the wrong reason on your blogsite or that certain deaf members die horribly or suffer brain damage. Or do all this National Esquirer stuff you do in your blog. You are who you are the crowd you keep. I don’t consider them as jokes but take them at face value whenever you wish harm or death upon other members in the deaf community because you are who you are, Ridor. Try and talk about bombs in the airport in a joking manner and see how far you can get away with that.
At least I know that Deaf/deaf/hh people are much more capable on what they can do in life. I’m optimistic that this is the case and, in fact, it is the case and it’ll just continue to grow. Only because technology has continue to give us that much needed independence. I blog these positive hopes that this will be the case.
Here’s an example.
I blog about how Deaf people can become more independent and successful in their work or business by using a communication device, the UbiDuo. A product developed and built at sComm whose deaf CEO/President is now a very, very good friend of mine that I now cherish. The UbiDuo, as I have explained in numerous blogs, allows deaf people to communicate more effectively with hearing people and thus bring down that ever so present communication barrier. And what did you do? Basically moaned that it is too expensive and ineffective at that price in Netrox’s blogpost last year.
http://netrox.blogspot.com/2006/04/ubi-duo-disappointing.html
But now, you make a 180 turn telling people what UbiDuo could do for people one year later!
http://www.ridorlive.com/?p=2113
In fact, you are testing one right now and I’m sure the UbiDuo has open doors in more ways than one! Ever wondered why you got the chance to test out the UbiDuo in the first place?
I try and show the bigger picture on what’s out there. And who’s who and what’s available. Which is why I advocated greater independency at Gallaudet at the vlog/blog convention a few months ago.
http://kokonutpundits.blogspot.com/2007/02/c2i-conference-why-did-i-use-my-voice.html
And I presented a very positive support and view on what we could do for Gallaudet University. It was a watershed moment for the deaf community. So, what did you do, Ridor? You basically slammed everybody who was involved in that vlog/blog conference and said it was a failure or “no good” in so many words.
http://www.ridorlive.com/?p=2077
It goes on and on.
I bring up Greg Gunderson (in many of my blogposts), who may in fact become the first ever Deaf NASCAR driver. And what do you do? Well, people can figure that one out easily.
Kevin McCaul is right. You and I are polar opposites. I focus more on the positive aspect on what Deaf/deaf/hh people can do. I have “tone” because I have an opinion. And many people see that as a problem for having an opinion but no so when it comes to wishing the death of a baby boy or some other deaf members. People could almost hear some of Ridor’s readers cheer when he said that.
It’s not me about being the “bigger man” in the blogosphere but it’s the desire to see other people get their much deserved opportunity and hope that they become the bigger person in life by being successful in what they do. This is what intrigues me regardless of the person’s political background, preferences of silence over sound, or that a person is Deaf, deaf, or hard of hearing. Growing pains come first before anybody becomes successful in life.
All in all, bottom line, I would rather have this “tone” of mine and have a conscious any day and strive to be the person that has a more positive outlook on life and for every Deaf/deaf/hh person to have a successful life than to go around wishing a little baby boy dead or some deaf members dead just to get the jollies all in the name of blogging.
DP, my apologies to you. But keep up with the good work. Blogging is sometimes never an easy thing to do.
The One and Only Ridor said,
May 1, 2007 at 12:56 am
I can argue more than that. It is not about your blog only. Look at Deafreedom where you created several threads attacking me from time to time.
It is your specialty in bashing me from day one.
As for NAD Conference, I know what I saw. You can lie all you want. I can get a couple of individuals who can confirm that you were very hostile when we first met.
As for your blog, many of your entries did not mention my name outright but everyone knew what you were talking about when you referred the topics to a certain blogger.
I dont think the readers are that stupid like you wanted them to be.
As for the UbiDuo, of course I changed! Why? Because Jason Curry took the time to show and share how it functions. I was impressed and realized that my assumptions were wrong.
People do change their minds. Get used to it, Mike!
And as for wishing someone’s infant dead — don’t start this. I got an email from this particular person who wished me dead of AIDS along with vulgar comments. So I shoot back making fun of his weight and wish his infant dead when he trips and lands on it — in my opinion, it is justified. You thought it was outrageous — I don’t turn my cheek when someone threw me an offensive slur! I kick back!
Don’t use Deaf Pundit’s blog to start the warfare with me — have some class by doing it in my face, bub. I acknowledge that few hated me with a passion like you. I also acknowledge that there are many readers who are on my side.
But the topic here is about YOUR tone from day one. You were simply rude, abrasive and condescending like the day you barged in on the conversation I had with at the vendors’ area in NAD Conference with your damned wifebeater t-shirt! Simply rude, period.
R-
netrox said,
May 1, 2007 at 2:01 am
“Ben Vess of Der Sankt wrote a blog entry about people’s attitudes toward our languages, and I left a comment recommending that we ignore it. But after some due consideration I’m going to rescind my position on that.”
Funny. Actually, it was Banjo that started the blogsphere on ASL being a language. What happened was that on a deaf forum, there were a deaf guy proclaiming that ASL is not a language because a language is tongue-based (speech). Banjo read that comment, IM’d me about that one and I told him, “ASL is a language. It’s a fact, not an opinion. Any linguist will tell you that.” Banjo did a good job and he wanted more diverse views on ASL.
Yet, when I said cued English is also a language, I still get “cued speech is not a language!” when in fact, I never said that.
What you need to understand is that “cued speech is not a language” is unproductive. Signs is NOT a language either but you don’t say, “I use signs” do you? Do hearing people say, “I use speech?” No, they say, “I speak English.” For deaf cuers, they should be saying, “I cue English.” If you sign in ASL, you say, “I sign ASL.” If you’re deaf-blind, you don’t “sign”, you use tactilites in ASL.
Signs isn’t a language, just like cued speech isn’t a language. So, what’s the point you’re trying to convey? To downplay the importance of cued languages?
Cued English is a language that uses cuem as a modality just like ASL is a language that uses signs as a modality. ASL can be conveyed with signs or tactilities, English can be conveyed with speech or cuem. Each modality are totally independent but remarkably capable of convey the SAME language.
It was Metzger and Fleetwood that wrote, “Cued Language Structure” explaining that cued languages are complete languages and how they confirm to linguistic theories. French reserachers independently formed an opinion that cued French has to be a complete language.
Two things that make cued languages so unique:
1) you can SPEAK and CUE at the same time without impairing comprehension of what’s being conveyed
2) it was using an INVENTED modality to convey a COMPLETE language.
Heck, even cuers are confused because they were taught that cued speech has to be based on speech and they speak while cueing! Speech and cuem are totally independent modalities – they do NOT depend on each other (but they can co-exist perfectly).
Also, one more thing about Kokonutguy’s comment about my blog, yes, I am the one that was disappointed with UbiDuo. I thought it was gonna be so revolutionary, given the way Scomm used the words in marketing (FACE TO FACE COMMUNICATION!)… I was imagining glasses with captioning or something. Apparently, UbiDuo has turned some skeptics into converts. I have absolutely nothing against the CEO of sComm whatsoever. I totally respect him and I admire his ambitions and optimism.
mcconnell said,
May 1, 2007 at 6:10 am
“Look at Deafreedom where you created several threads attacking me from time to time.”
Er, not quite Ridor. I created one thread in 2004, one in 2005, and one in 2006 about you. The 2006 one wasn’t even an attack. And again, I have not created *several* threads about you. The rest were done by other members of DF.
Please find these so-called “several threads” that I created about you. Scan the some 24 pages of topics I created in DF. Which ones Ridor??
http://deafreedom.com/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=f88158ccc1d5ac5710e6e22a20c3f7f9&search_in=topics&result_type=topics&hl=
Just like I asked you to find and show me the “tons and tons” of blogposts (ie “40% about you) I’ve done on you when in fact there are very few compared to the 1073 posts so far. The same goes for Deafreedom.
“It is your specialty in bashing me from day one.”
Incorrect. My specialty lies elsewhere seeing some 98.5% of my 1073 blogposts I did were not even about you. Not even obliquely about you. The same goes for Deafreedom when it comes to topics I started. Please write down which topics I wrote about you.
“As for NAD Conference, I know what I saw. You can lie all you want. I can get a couple of individuals who can confirm that you were very hostile when we first met.”
Describe “very hostile.” And a nice play with words. My wife was with me the whole time. She can confirm this on what I did and it wasn’t even anywhere near “hostile.” Dave Evans was there, too, out in the hallway. I even waited patiently until you were done talking with your friends did I ask you to come with me so that we can have a discussion. Stern it was the discussion but certainly not a bloodbath nor “hostile” as you put it. From you it now went from “not very cordial” to “very hostile.” What a jump. I suppose shaking hands with you 2 different times on my own iniative after each meeting is the same as being “hostile,” too?
“As for your blog, many of your entries did not mention my name outright but everyone knew what you were talking about when you referred the topics to a certain blogger.”
Again, write down the topics and links that showed this. I’ve asked you to do this numerous times. Some were directly about you, others were obliquely about you. Sure. But it certainly wasn’t 40%. Holy smokes! That would be 445 posts!!! I only have 1073 blogposts. Look at the titles. Once again, put those topics down for all to see.
But you won’t because the truth would certainly come out. Readers can decide who is telling the truth on the number of blogposts about you.
“And as for wishing someone’s infant dead — don’t start this.”
Er, you started this by involving somebody else’s family wherby you absolutely have no PROOF the email was sent by this guy to you. NONE! Regardless, you sincerely wished the infant son dead who had nothing to do with you in the first place. That is not “justification” invovling a family member who can’t even defend himself in the first place.
“Don’t use Deaf Pundit’s blog to start the warfare with me — have some class by doing it in my face, bub.”
Um…you started the comment first in DP blog comment and I was forced to defend myself because you choose to spread a lie on DP’s blog comment about me. Had you not done that you wouldn’t have heard anything from me. And remember, I approached you first on initiating the discussion with you at the NAD convention after you were done talking with your friends and I/we discussed in details about, specifically so, your remark wishing somebody else’s deaf father’s baby son…dead! If you want another face to face discussion (in person) let me know. Hmmm?
“But the topic here is about YOUR tone from day one. You were simply rude, abrasive and condescending like the day you barged in on the conversation I had with at the vendors’ area in NAD Conference with your damned wifebeater t-shirt! Simply rude, period.”
Again, another lie. I stood by an unoccupied booth near the front exit doors of the NAD showroom approximately several feet away from you while you chatted with your friends. I waited until you were done. This was a matter of courtesy on my part. Common sense dictates this. I had no intention on creating a scene in the middle of the NAD showroom. Hmm? There was no barging in at all and you know this very well, Ridor. You knew I was standing there. I waited patiently until you were done talking so we could have a chance to speak privately. This took approximately 10 to 15 minutes until you were done talking. And now you want to talk about rude and condescending? Um, better explain why that is the case to the father you wished his son dead.
Wifebeater shirt? It’s called a tank-top. Green color, not white. I wore it because it was like 102 degrees outside where the NAD convention was held. And I don’t beat my wife which is exactly what you are trying to imply. And you want to talk about being rude?
Like I said, I rather have this so-called “tone” anyday than to go around all over the internet wishing a little baby boy dead because you feel “justified” doing that by going after a helpless baby.
Wot a laugh.
Have a nice day, Ridor.
Enjoy your UbiDuo.
DP, again. Much apologies for getting this off topic. And apologies to the folks out who are reading this. Not my idea of fun. This will be my last entry regarding Ridor here. I’ve nothing more to say here. Readers can decide between “tone” and wishing death of a baby boy.
Again, don’t let all this scare you and keep up with the blogging efforts even if people do disagree, civilly that is. That’s what makes blogging great.
deafpundit said,
May 1, 2007 at 6:40 am
That’s all right, McConnell. You have a right to defend yourself.
Netrox, the signs itself are part of the language. By your argument, SEE would be a language as well, and it isn’t.
netrox said,
May 1, 2007 at 11:28 am
“Netrox, the signs itself are part of the language. By your argument, SEE would be a language as well, and it isn’t.”
I am very familiar with linguistics.
All languages are built on phonemes, the building blocks of languages. In SEE, access to English phonemes is seriously impaired therefore Signed English is linguistically incomplete.
In cued langauges, each cue represents a phoneme. Cued English is built on cues as spoken English is built on sounds; each cue and sound represents the same abstract phoneme. Since cued langauges use cuem to convey phonemes of languages, they’re complete languages.
The One and Only Ridor said,
May 1, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Ridor, I’ve moderated your comment because this has gone on long enough, and what you said was inappropriate. Disagreements are fine, but telling people to stuff it where it doesn’t shine in a crude manner is a no go on here.
If you want the world to see what you said to McConnell, you are more than welcome to post it on your blog.
The One and Only Ridor said,
May 1, 2007 at 5:24 pm
All I can say is that McConnell simply lied.
R-
mcconnell said,
May 11, 2007 at 8:48 pm
sigh…..
*shakes head*